October 20th Guest of Honor ~ Jennifer Newcomb Marine, Kellie and Kathryn ~ The Stepmom/Mom Relationship
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I have been looking forward to this day for a very long time! Ever since I met two sister stepmoms, Kellie and Kathryn, who also happen to be in a mom/stepmom relationship, I knew I had to have them on The Toolbox and make it happen with my good friend, Jennifer Newcomb Marine, co-author of “No One’s The Bitch.”
Those of you who read my blog on a regular basis know that I have a very good relationship with my husband’s ex-wife. I often refer to her (and introduce her) as my ex-wife-in-law. I’ve gone through my own gnashing of teeth, but in the end, after I’ve gone within, I realized that most of my issues were between my own two ears. I am blessed to have a good relationship with my step kids mom. And I’m thrilled to bring you Kellie, Kathryn, and Jennifer because it is possible to create a working relationship. (Please note: This pertains to reasonable and responsible people. Every situation is different.)
Although I know Kellie and Kathryn’s story, I want them to weave their story and how the built their relationship amidst the nay sayers, negative influencers, and their own fears. In addition, how awesome is it that we have Jennifer Newcomb Marine here to answer questions and comment on Kellie and Kathryn’s story!
About Kellie and Kathryn
About Kellie: My name is Kellie, I am 36 years old and I am the mom to a wonderful 13 year old daughter named Bailey. I work for a well known insurance company part time. I am married to a great guy named Bill who has blessed me with 2 step sons, Elijah 10, and Luke 7. We live in Eastern Washington.
Bailey’s dad, Jeff, and I were engaged, but never married. We decided, after we had our precious girl, that our relationship wasn’t working so separated when Bailey was 3-weeks old.
About Kathryn: I am Bailey’s step mom Kathryn and her dad, Jeff, and I met when she was 3 1/2. He introduced me to her on our third date and I was smitten. She was the prettiest little girl I had ever seen and she had amazingly good manners for a three ear old. Jeff and I were married when Bailey was 5 and we have no other children as yet. I am 34, live in Western Oregon and until July worked 60 hours a week as an HR and office manager. I adore my stepdaughter and love it when she comes down for vacations!
About Jennifer Newcomb Marine
Jennifer Newcomb Marine is the co-author of “No One’s the Bitch: A Ten-Step Plan for Mothers and Stepmothers” (GPP Life), as well as a nonfiction book development consultant and ghostwriter. She’s an avid traveler (especially with her two teenage daughters), rock climber, and rower.
Most ex-wives and stepmoms can’t stand each other! We’re here to say it doesn’t have to be that way.
In fact, it’s very possible to create a healthy, working “extended family” that lends itself to better parenting, happier children, stronger marriages and the sanity of all adults involved.
Maybe you can only improve things to the point of becoming good “business partners” with each other (like having to deal with a dreaded family member, or someone who grates on you at work) OR — maybe you’ll even end up becoming friends. Who knows?
Ladies – grab your coffee, tea, or hot cocoa because today is going to be so awesome. Learn a new way to deal with your husband’s ex-wife. Learn how to let certain things go. Learn how to build upon small gestures of kindness. Ask questions. Get answers! And YES, one lucky stepmom (or bio-mom) will win a signed copy of Jennifer’s book, “No One’s the Bitch!” But you have to participate and leave a comment/question in the comments section for one of our guests of honor!
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Kellie, Kathryn, and Jennifer!
Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join us here on The Stepmom’s Toolbox! I’m thrilled to have all three of you on the same day!
I’m going to get this started by asking a few questions regarding the mom/stepmom relationship.
How did you reach out? How many olive branches were given? How did you get out of your own way to form a relationship with the other mother?
Hello Kellie Kathryn and Jennifer
This is great! Thank you so much for setting it up, Peggy.
Kellie and Kathryn, may I ask how Bailey’s Dad reacted to your friendship (with a certain amount of relief I am sure!)?
I am tentatively and slowly finding myself in an improving situation with my husband’s second wife (long story – I am wife #3). Sadly, she has recently had a brush with cancer and for the first time in 10 years she and I had some positive communication – culminating in my step-daughter and I taking a three-day trip alone together (woo-hoo!). A few weeks later my step-duaghter came to spend a night with me while my husband was away on a business trip (another first). My husband’s attitude is “enjoy it while it lasts” – he is somewhat cynical about her (with some justification, I’m afraid). So my second question is – do you have any tips to help us get past all the hurt and disappointments of the past to foster this new relationship between her and I so that is DOES last? A huge question, I know.
Thanks for being here today to enlighten us w/ your much-needed wisdom!!!
I have a question, and it’s not uncommon for a lot of us:
How can my husband and I work w/ a BM who is honestly just plain MEAN? We’re talking about drugs, countless sex partners (in front of the children!) abusive/neglectful toward the kids, lying, manipulating–you get the idea!
I, myself, have always been courteous to her, but that’s the best I can possibly do. DH tries, for the sake of the children, but she just screams at him and ignores the CO. (We have full custody and she see them every other weekend—when she chooses to, that is. Not being catty, just straightforward.)
What tips do you have that could help us maintain our polite attitude toward her which might, in turn, get her to be polite to us and better to the kids?
Any advice would be much appreciated!!!
Thanks!!!
bunny
Thanks for taking the time out to be here with us! My question is how do you foster a relationship w/a BM that doesn’t want to have a relationship? In addition, the BM has been diagnosed as Bi-polar, however now denies that diagnosis and claims it’s Narcolepsy. It’s constant upheaval with the skids and BM, one day I’m the “Bonus Mom”, the next I’m the “stepmonster”. At what point does one just throw in the towel? It’s almost like an abusive relationship where emotions are toyed with and ultimately, the victim is beaten up. It’s hard to keep going back for more, when eventually, the small positives become overtaken by the large negatives.
PS:
We have been more than kind to her in times of need. She has repaid us w/ vindictive actions in return. When we thought she did us a favor recently, the price was letting our guard down and being shocked at her next spiteful act against us and her own kids.
We STILL want peace, at least to be civil. I have this w/ my X-husband and I can’t quite understand why my hubby’s X chooses to be downright cruel. Thoughts?
Thanks again,
bunny
Jennifer – you wrote No One’s the Bitch in collaboration with your kids’ stepmom. In your opinion, what are the fundamental fears (of both moms and stepmoms) that create such a “great divide” between both women?
Good morning, Ladies!
Whew, we’re starting off with a bang, huh?!!
I’ll guess I’ll try to answer these questions sequentially. Luckily, I type (fairly) fast…
Peggy asked:
How did you reach out? How many olive branches were given? How did you get out of your own way to form a relationship with the other mother?
Jen:
Having to write succinctly here might make me sound glib, but I’ll do my best to summarize. Honestly, my actions started out so small that they might have seemed imperceptible to anyone else. It began with simple things like making eye contact. How STRESSFUL is it to interact with someone and not even make eye contact???? Egads! So I started there, because typically, whenever Carol (the stepmom) and I were around each other, we were both nervous wrecks. I just assumed she hated my guts (after all, I knew part of her “bonding experience” with my ex had probably been to trash me, which more than likely including the spilling of my most dreaded secrets and issues, which made me already feel incredibly defensive and vulnerable). I wasn’t sure I liked her either, although really, I barely knew her.
So it started with eye contact and simply saying hello. Then it moved onto asking her how she was doing, things like that….
As I worked through the resentments and problems I still had with my ex, which included finally turning and facing the enormity of what we’d done to our children, I had to face a TREMENDOUS amount of guilt and regret and sadness. Very, very tough stuff to do. This involved mourning, but doing so also enabled me to forgive both him and myself for the mistakes we made.
This also made me want to extend myself to Carol. One of the first “big” things I did with her was give her a Mother’s Day card thanking her for everything she did with our kids, because I knew she worked her ass off with them…. She didn’t immediately respond with open arms, because we hadn’t established much actual trust between us by then, but it was the start of something new….
Hi Bunny,
Great questions! Often, in these stepmom/mom relationships, women feel the need to make everything okay for everybody — to establish peace, cooperation, communication. It’s one of the reasons that stepmoms can end up so unhappy in a stepfamily. As Wednesday Martin so beautifully illustrates in her book, women are the emotional managers of a family and are implicitly expected to carry this burden. When they can’t make it all “work,” they feel like crap.
If you didn’t even KNOW the mom, it would be clear to you that her behavior is irresponsible and unacceptable. So that part is clearly established. That means, in a certain sense, you are “off the hook” in terms of trying to make everything hunky-dory.
BUT!
You’re still stuck interacting with her, right? Bleh…. I’m sure it sucks. So, at this point, I would say the emphasis shifts to learning how to create healthy boundaries for you, your marriage and your stepchildren. That means educating yourself!
Read up on how to create healthy boundaries (I’ve heard Where to Draw the Line (http://www.amazon.com/Where-Draw-Line-Healthy-Boundaries/dp/0684868067) is a good book, though I haven’t read it myself, but intend to. This way you can take back a feeling of control in your life. When the fort is under constant attack, it’s only natural for the inhabitants to feel threatened!
You might also want to read up on how to deal with parents who are lousy at parenting. I would HIGHLY recommend Keeping Kids Out of the Middle, by Benjamin Garber and Divorce Poison, by Richard Warshak. This way you have a “context” for understanding the consequences of destructive parenting and you don’t have to keep looking for validation from others about this (“She crazy, right? She shouldn’t be doing this?”). You can just take the longer view, understand the parameters, and again, take action to create healthy boundaries and set some long-term goals.
Best of luck!!
I’ve always taught my kids (and hers, now) that it’s important to be courtesy, that manners are always important. How do I deal with someone who doesn’t care/bother to even answer an email? For instance, I’ve sent her pictures of (her) kids, making sure me, DH and my bio kids aren’t in them, and most of the time I don’t even get a “thanks” email in reply. Recently I emailed her to let her know I had a Halloween costume that my SS could wear, since he had said she was looking for that kind. No response at all. I realize that her issues are HER issues, and I know I can’t change her, but how can I get past the wanting to just shake her and ask her what her problem is, and if that’s what she really wants to teach the kids? There’s a long story behind it, massive inferiority, incomplete bonding with the kids, DH was a SAHD while her schooling seems to be much more important to her than anything else, and my SKids and I have bonded completely. I have my own codependency issues I’m dealing with lol, but any tips on dealing with this situation? I told her when we first met that I absolutely would not try to take her kids away, that she was and would always be their mother. I’m big on coparenting, while she seems to want DH & I to just go away (recently fought us for sole custody, doesn’t give notices to DH about school events, etc.)
Jennifer, Kellie, and Kathryn
First, I think it is amazing that Jennifer gave Carol some acknowledgment on that most charged of days, Mother’s Day. Kudos to you, and I wish everyone in a remarriage with kids had an ex like you in the picture.
I know you and Carol live in the same town. Can you talk about how proximity makes it easier or more difficult for the wife/ex-wife relationship? Do you, your readers, and women like Kellie and Kathryn think that living nearby facilitates easier relations? Or does distance help?
Finally, so glad you’re all doing what you’re doing here today!
Wednesday
Wednesday Martin, Ph.D.
http://www.wednesdaymartin.com
(Megan, you addressed your question specifically to Kellie and Kathryn, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m ignoring you, but I’d be happy to answer your question too, if you’d like!)
Hi Brenda at StepMom Magazine!! You wrote:
What are the fundamental fears (of both moms and stepmoms) that create such a “great divide” between both women?
I think the fundamental fears for both women fall along these lines:
Stepmoms:
-The feeling of being an “extra” in the family, not having the same amount of power, “say,” or control as the other two parents. Feeling excluded from a sense of family history, context and memories. This makes it harder to stay open, because it feels too vulnerable and “weak.” So stepmoms understandably try to fortify their sense of a closed family unit to increase a feeling of stability and sanity. Unfortunately, this can also contribute to power struggles between the two households. But again, it’s totally understandable.
-The need to align herself with her husband’s “story” against the mom, as a show of love and support. If she’s going to be FOR him, then often that means being AGAINST the mom, even if she would normally be inclined to be neutral and see for herself what she’s like. This also hardens the line between the two women…
-I don’t care how mature you are – it’s gotta sting to know that the children you are taking care of, children you are attempting to create your OWN relationship with – will always have a stronger allegiance to their mother. You GET it on an intellectual level, but you also realize there’s an internal “block” that the children have against you, as a show of loyalty to their mom. It’s hard not to lump your pain over this issue along with your feelings about her. After all, she’s the impediment to a better relationship with the stepkids. I think this can be subtle (or sometimes extremely overt!) stuff that goes on for years and years.
For moms:
-I already alluded to this above, but it’s the feeling of exposure. What if you knew that your former best friend at work (who knew all your dirty laundry) had bonded with all your office mates at work one evening over happy hour and totally trashed you, while laughing their heads off? How would you feel going to work the next day?! This is what it can feel like to be the mom – knowing that the stepmom and your ex have likely probed the depths of every single personality flaw and issue of yours. And you don’t get the pleasure (!) of reciprocating, because you don’t have access to this same information about the stepmom (unless you cross the line and milk the kids for info., which is totally inappropriate).
-Feeling threatened and jealous about the kids bonding with the stepmom. Even if it’s irrational, moms are scared that the kids might bond with the stepmom in a way that they’re not bonded with her (kind of like the “fun-weekend dad” syndrome). Moms are well aware of their shortcomings as parents, the places they totally fall short (something women are great at!) and it’s hard to feel like the other woman is shining in areas where you’re limping along.
-You didn’t give her “permission” to come into your kids’ lives. You didn’t vet her, like you would a babysitter. You don’t know anything about her and yet she’s going to be in close contact with them. This makes moms feel helpless and worried. The mother tiger thing kicks in and you harden yourself against the “intruder.”
Some core, primitive stuff on both sides!!
Hi Kat,
I often tell anyone who is dealing with a toxic person that the best way to deal with them is not to. Bi-polar is a tough mental health illness and unless the bio mom is being treated for this, you’re best bet is to focus on your marriage and nuture that bond so that it grows and blossoms.
Side note: Kellie and Kathryn are on PST – so, they will be on soon to share their journey!
Hi Dawn and Wednesday!
I’ve got to run out the door for a doctor’s appt. in 20 mins. but will hop back on here as soon as I get back and answer your questions!
Back soon,
Jen
Jennifer, thank you for the “fundamental fears” breakdown, it’s very helpful. And the simple suggestion of eye contact – brilliant! I’m going to start doing that. It’s extremely stressful when you’re treated as a pack mule or something, here’s his backpack, here’s her boots, etc., and we’re both just wanting to get it done and get on with our day. (And yes, it’s got to be extremely stressful for her when her kids are so excited and run to me to give me tackle hugs whenever they see me, I realize that!) I’m going to take the fundamental fears list to my next therapy appointment to discuss. I know, I know, I can only change ME and how I react! Letting go of that, of the wanting everybody to just get along, is going to be very hard for me. I know it’s best for the kids if we all get along though, and they’re worth it to me, which is why I keep opening myself up for abuse. Argh! We make sure the kids make/do something for BM for Mother’s Day, etc., but she’s just folded up pictures the kids have made to stick in her pocket (yes, I’ve seen this) instead of treating them with pride. (And no, she’s never had the kids do anything for Daddy, I have. Maybe that’s the way it’s supposed to be? I don’t know. And also, no, I’m certainly not expecting a thank you since the gifts are from the kids, but if it’s something we’ve handmade together, at least a comment acknowledging it would’ve been nice.) Maybe I’m expecting her to be too much like me? Courteous, considerate, thinking more about the kids and how they feel about things. Somehow I can’t help but think that that’s not such a bad thing.
Hey Jenifer –
I posted this scenario in several forums (as well as to Jacquelyn yesterday) but I would LOVE to get your take on it as well. I am “patiently” awaiting your book to arrive… and I really love your perspective and would appreciate your taking the time to provide me with any feedback or insight on my current situation.
The BM divorced for the 2nd time this year. Then, my boyfriend and I were having a challenging time (we are now through it) and she decided to take this time to let my BF know that she wanted to get back together. I trust my man and know that he does not want to get back together with her… so no worries there. But she has started using her son, or confusing her son (4 1/2 yrs), to manipulate the situation. For the first time in the 2+ years that I have been in his life, he is starting to not want to be around me, throwing a fit when I pick him up, and saying how much he hates me. He is also making comments or asking questions that I am not sure how to answer… like commenting about how his mom & dad used to live together, how cute they looked in the wedding pictures that his mom showed him, reminding me that I’m not married to daddy and maybe mom and dad should get married again… things like – even though his mom used to live in the same neighborhood as the house that they once shared together and we passed it often without comment – he is now saying “that’s the street where my mommy and daddy used to live together” or commenting on how his mommy and daddy used to take him camping and how fun that was. She is also starting to initiate outings in which she invites my boyfriend to join them – such as, “hey we’re headed to the park by your house. {Son’s name} is asking if daddy can come too.”
I feel bad… and a little lost. I really want to make my relationship with the BM as pleasant as possible and even strive to be friends. And I understand that she is just in a bad place in her life and looking to the past for answers. And I know that this little boy is just confused by my place in his life and trying to make sense of the situation. I just don’t know how to handle her, handle his questions and comments (which I don’t take personally from him, because I know that he loves and trusts me and is just being manipulated right now)… and how to talk to my BF about it. He doesn’t really see the situation as I do… and just wants to spend as much time with his son as possible and feels guilty that he can’t spend more time.
Any suggestions?
I am a goofball. Sorry it took me so long to get here, but I had to figure out how to get to where I could post.
I am here now! Sorry ladies!
Hey there, I’m back. Catching up on reading at the moment….
Hi Megan,
I think Jeff reacted happily surprised actually. Kathryn would be able to get more detailed on that.
Kathryn and I becoming friends has helped everyone involved in our situation/family. It’s eased tensions and allowed Bailey to have more fun down at their home, and it’s helped me to be able to relax when she goes down there. Of course, I miss her, but I don’t have the anxiousness often associated with not seeing my girl for 3-week intervals.
Jennifer–
Thank you for your response!!
i will certainly check out the books you suggested!!
bunny
Okay Peggy…
As for reaching out, I think it most likely started when Kathryn sent Bailey home with some candy and included candy for the boys! That wasn’t something they *HAD* to do, and it meant so much to the boys, that I had to call and thank them.
Based on Kathryn sending candy for the boys was probably a huge olive branch, whether Kathryn sees it as one or not, I do.
That simple act just sort of allowed me to drop whatever defenses I’d built up and showed me that “Wow, this woman isn’t so bad!”
Things have just gotten better from there!
Of course, at first it was “How long will this last?” but I don’t feel that trepidation any longer.
Oops, sorry Kat! Somehow I didn’t see your question earlier. Peggy’s right, bi-polar is tough to handle. Probably one of the hardest parts about your situation is the mixed messages you’re getting if you sometimes feel like you’re making progress and then it all goes to shit again. That intermittent positive reinforcement is enough to drive a lot of folks crazy and keep you emotionally sucked into a very unhealthy situation.
Do your best to make your own walls and boundaries as solid and clear as possible. You can’t eliminate the crazy behavior, but you can do a lot to increase your own sense of peace and calm by learning more about HOW to do that, as a skill. Part of you might feel resentful that you even HAVE to, but it’s what you’re left with…. So do it for yourself, your marriage and your stepfamily and I wish you the best of luck!
I guess the biggest thing for Kathryn and I was to not push it. Not pushing our relationship, not pushing “faking” a friendship and really, not pushing pretending to even like one another.
Kathryn and I were talking last night on the phone, and she brought up one time (which I do not remember, but Kathryn has a self proclaimed “freakish” memory, so I am sure it happened!) where I flat out told her “I don’t like you or trust you.”
Probably not the nicest thing to say, but it’s how I felt, and it’s how SHE felt as well.
I think time and distance is what lead us to this point. We were seeing one another every other weekend, as well as other causes that didn’t help our parenting relationship. Now, Bailey has to fly down to see them. I haven’t seen Jeff or Kathryn in about 2 1/2 years now. The tension is no longer palpable.
Kathryn and I gladly call one another “friend” and mean it.
Dawn, sounds like you started out doing some important things right, such as what you tried to communicate to her about your intentions with your role etc. That was big of you and took some maturity and grace. Unfortunately, she does sound pissed and uncooperative. One reality that you can’t do much about, no matter how polite, fair and helpful you try to be: for many moms, they just wish the stepmom did not exist. Period. You almost can’t win in this type of scenario, because the mom will find fault with everything you do, no matter how well-intentioned.
You could try reaching out with the simpler steps, as you mentioned, and it might help. But I would also suggest readjusting your hopes and expectations. Ask yourself some questions about how you would like your OWN conduct to be (polite, responsible, open to cooperation, etc.) and then resolve to act this way, WITHOUT an attachment to, as much as possible, anything in return. Asking a lot, I know! Very “zen” and potentially difficult (or seemingly impossible!). But if you can’t find that in yourself, then perhaps it’s time to stop taking those actions that are making you feel like you’re reaching out and getting slapped in the face. Can the burden of interaction shift more to the dad at all?
There’s got to be a balance between giving and receiving. If the balance is perpetually lopsided, then pull back as best you can.
Also, you mentioned codependency. Not that I know anything about that (cough), but that would mean you have a tendency to underestimate and undervalue your own needs, and place the emphasis instead of doing what the other person wants — or on what “seems” nice, kind, polite, etc. and finding value in yourself from this place of giving. This knee-jerk instinct might be the thing that’s biting you in the ass, so it’s worth looking into deeper.
Good wishes to you!
Kat, I am bipolar and I can tell you there is no way it can be confused with narcolepsy! Also, bipolar doesn’t necessarily make you “crazy” or “psycho”, because I know PLENTY of people without the disorder who fit that criteria! Lots of people have issues/disorders/problems, and many can (and do) get help to overcome them. (I’m just fine with my meds, more stable, reliable and well-adjusted than many other people I know without the disorder!) Relying on what’s “wrong” with you to excuse bad behavior is just… wrong. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with a seemingly unstable influence in your life. Just keep loving the kids, being a steady, stable influence for them. That’s what they need.
Hi Kellie! And you’re welcome, Bunny….
Wednesday wrote:
I know you and Carol live in the same town. Can you talk about how proximity makes it easier or more difficult for the wife/ex-wife relationship? Do you, your readers, and women like Kellie and Kathryn think that living nearby facilitates easier relations? Or does distance help?
Thanks for your questions and for the kudos, Wednesday!
Proximity is a tricky one…. I was thinking about this in the car on my way to my appt. and I realized how much the issue of distance can get all tangled up in resentments… and eventually closing yourself off to the other person. For example, when David and Carol got married, they wanted to live in a house. Sounds reasonable, right? However, if they were going to be able to afford the kind of house they wanted, while also paying child support, that meant they had to move to the outskirts of the city, out to the suburbs, instead of closer into town. That also meant that the drive to pick up the kids was going to be longer and it was going to be more difficult to do spontaneous things with them. I knew they would eventually see their dad less, or at least that was my fear (which turned out to be somewhat the case, but they also ended staying there longer when they went).
As a mom, I cared deeply about my children having a good relationship with their dad, about them feeling loved and cared for by him, etc. I was afraid they would feel hurt with less contact. So part of me felt judgmental and annoyed, even though this might sound really petty and irrational. I blamed Carol for where they lived and didn’t feel all that open to her for a while because of it. Once our relationship really started shifting, it was much less of an issue.
I could see how proximity could either help moms and stepmoms make positive progress in their relationship, because there are more opportunities for interaction and sometimes it takes face-to-face contact for big shifts to occur. I could also see how distance might go a long way (sorry, bad pun) in diffusing a volatile situation. It can be harder to reach out to someone if you don’t ever see their face and they can’t see yours!
I can still remember the first time I hugged Carol, probably about two years or so into our “relationship,” ha. It was kind of scary and weird, but such a relief!
Having a toxic biomother in the mix, I don’t have much input on today’s topic (except to cheer on my friend, Kellie!). But I appreciate Jennifer’s breakdown of the fundamental fears, especially the stepmother’s need to align with the father–to be “against” the biomother in order to be “for” the father.
There have been several times when I have been able to put myself in the children’s mother’s shoes and understood why she did things the way she did–for all our differences, we are both women and we are living with the same children. It’s times like those when I wish that a cordial relationship with her was possible.
Megan, I thought your question to Kellie and Kathryn was a great one!
Hi Jennifer! How are you doing? I am ordering a copy of your book soon. Had to pay back-to-school fees and photos, but now that those are basically done, your book is first on my list.
Jessica, you are awesome! I know the struggles you and your StepMom have gone through, and I will always cheer you on too! If it’s meant to be, it’ll be. If not, just be happy knowing you are trying your hardest, because even though your younger stepkids might not see it yet, your oldest does see it and loves you for it.
Dawn, I also wanted to say, yes, it must be tough to be treated like “the pack mule.” This is the sucky thing about being a stepmom – you’re often thrown into the role of hands-on caregiver by default because women are just more attentive with all the little details of parenting. Then you don’t have the dad thanking you (perhaps what the first wife experienced too!) AND the mom isn’t thanking you either!!!
DeAnn,
Eeek! Your situation sounds really nerve-wracking. My heart goes out to you, having all these reminders at the older relationship coming at you from the mouths of babes. Sounds to me like your efforts should be directed at resolving this issue with your boyfriend, instead of the mom. After all, how could you possibly create a friendship with her at this point? She’s doing something highly inappropriate and completely lacking in respect or awareness of your feelings – she’s trying to get her ex-husband back — and away from you!
Yes, your boyfriend feels conflicted and guilty about his relationship with his son. Often, dads are stuck feeling like they lose all the way around. They miss their kids. They feel guilty and so are the pals without discipline when they see them, then feel guilty and incomplete about that. Their wives/partners are unhappy that they have to deal with an ex all the time, and feel rejected or disrespected by the kids (which he can’t necessarily fix). The ex puts pressure on him to do things a certain way too and sometimes he has to yield because she’s the other parent and has the power to “push” various issues.
BUT….
Your boyfriend needs to understand the difficult, painful position you’re being put in with your stepson. Sometimes guys need a clear, factual summary of the situation without all the emotion. Can you show him what you just wrote down and calmly say, this is what I’m struggling with right now. How can you help me? What steps are you willing to take to alleviate my pain and discomfort, my fear?
I would venture to say that HE needs to be one to create some strong, clear boundaries between the ex and your family. He needs to state in no uncertain terms that he is not open to getting back together with her. And he needs to tell that what she’s doing with their son is unacceptable, putting him in the middle like that. She’s causing him distress. Check out Dr. Garber’s book that I mentioned above for more information on situations like this, where the child is being made to be the football. Footballs get kicked back and forth and children deserve strong advocates who REFUSE to let this happen. Best of luck to you!
Jessica, I meant to type BM, not SM.
Sorry about my loss of brain use there…lol.
Thanks, Jessica! I like how you actually seem to see the mom as a real human being. Not always easy in these situations….
And thanks to you too, Kellie, for putting our book on your list!
Off to lunch now. Look forward to more conversation in a bit.
kellie! So awesome to see you on!! Your story is just awesome. I love how you saw Kathryn sending your stepsons as an olive branch. I know how hard it is for some of us to see what we do as something “big.” I know I feel that way…and all I’m doing is going about my day being me. Kindness goes a long way…and that’s what Kathryn did…and it sure helped break the ice!
Thanks Peggy! I am honored you asked us to be on.
I will be heading off to get ready for work momentarily (argh) but should be able to check in a bit from work.
I think Kathryn will be here soon too. I know she had plans this morning.
Thanks to Jennifer, Kellie, and Kathryn for taking the time to be here and answer our questions! I’ve enjoyed reading what’s been posted so far!
Jennifer, you touched on the issue of setting healthy boundaries. With the holidays around the corner, this has become a concern of mine. My question (for all of you) is – how did you (and do you) deal with holiday arrangements? My husband and I do not have a close relationship with my stepdaughter’s BM or her family. While I believe (and have done my best to practice and demonstrate) that it is important for all adults involved to be courteous and polite towards, as well as respectful of, one another for the sake of all relationships involved in our complicated equation, I don’t believe it wise to put on a false facade of Brady Bunch cheefulness if it doesn’t inherently exist. The idea of both families coming together for the holidays has been tossed around, but I, personally, am not ready for such a giant leap. What would you ladies do (or have you done) in this position?
Additionally, my next question (which I know is a subject Peggy has touched on here through her blog previously) ties into this same general concept of setting boundaries. How did you learn to make sacrifices without sacrificing yourself?
Janelle,
We deal with holiday arrangements based on how our respective attorneys. Jeff and Kathryn had Christmas last year, so we get Christmas this year. Bailey will however be spending Thanksgiving with them, and they get her the day AFTER Christmas.
We just rotate. Of course, with Christmas being the big one, we’d all like to have Bailey with us on Christmas, but it just can’t work that way.
It’s just got to be settled with NO emotions, and through attorneys or through the court system.
It didn’t always used to be like this. I remember a recent a few years ago when it went horribly; my aunt was at my parents house for pickup and things got out of hand. This is all the more reason I say emotions be left completely out of any negotiations.
Put the child(ren) first. Put yourself in the childs(ren) shoes. Would you want your parents fighting over where he/she spends the holiday?
If I had known then what I know now, Kathryn and I never would have said most of what was said/done in the past.
With that, I am off to head in to work. I will try my hardest to check in a couple of times while I am there!
Hi Janelle,
I’m one of the anomolies in stepmom land when it comes to the holidays. My husband’s ex-wife’s family kept him when they got divorced, so holidays are “one happy bunch” getting together. It’s mass chaos with good food.
That said, DH and I created our own holiday tradition. Because we have six kids between us (my two, his four), we claimed Thanksging breakfast. Our kids and their SO’s and/or spouses and now grandchildren come over for a gourmet breakfast at 9AM. Everyone is fat, dumb and happy by 11AM and out the door by noon to go to wherever it is they need to go to. Many of us end up at my husband’s ex-MIL’s home (ok, she’s not the ex because I actually introduce her as my mother-in-law) and so do we. Then DH and I go eat dessert with my dad and stepmom when they are in town.
Christmas is spread out over a couple of days. MIL claims a Saturday that’s not Christmas. DH and I claim Christmas Eve. And someone else throws a party.
It works on one side. The other side of my life…I made it work with the Thanksgiving breakfast because my exhusband makes it a competition with me… and our girls are 22 and 25! Just today I told my youngest daughter that I refuse to compete with him and that I realize that it’s easier for her to say no to me than him. And that I’m ok with that because I know how much I love her and how much she loves me. Game over.
Thanks for the response, Kellie.
I agree with you in that our respective attornies and the court systems need to step in place to make custodial/visitation decisions for us when we can’t come to an agreement as sensible adults without lettings our emotions get the best of us. We’ve already gone that route. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I’m having a hard time with this issue. We don’t have the luxury of creating plans that involve the day after (or before) Christmas that you’ve been able to develop, as our situation is an example of the long-distance scenario that was mentioned earlier. Distance in our case doesn’t transcend town boundaries, however, but state boundaries. As such, our court order states that we alternate the entire Winter/Christmas break between households every year. This is our year to have my stepdaughter for the holidays, yet the BM tossed-out the possibility of she and her family coming out to visit with us and my stepdaugther for a few days during the two-week Winter/Christmas Break period. Because my stepdaughter’s BM is the custodial parent and my husband and I only have a few weeks with my stepdaughter throughout the year while the BM has her on a near daily basis, I feel that this idea has become an example of over-stepping boundaries.
“Game over.” Nice, Peggy! I like your attitude! It inspires me daily!
Your set-up sounds like a good one that has produced (relatively – holidays and family bring forth dramas big and small no matter how much effort is put in place to avoid it, I’m sure!) great results! I’m sure it helps that your children (for the most part!) are all grown and leading adults lives of their own now, too. My stepdaugther is still in the early years of her life, as she’s in 1st grade. That in and of itself may be a reason why the selfish “My time!” claws come out in our case, as everyone in involved in her life wants to watch her experience things and grow!
Kellie, Kathryn and Jennifer,
I don’t want to bore you with all the gory details but suffice it to say that my step-kids mom and I have a cordial but distant relationship. We are nice to eachother face to face (for the most part, one in every four meetings she completely ignores me which is uncomfortable at best). I do my best to understand her and put myself in her shoes whenever possible. I understand her feelings, or at least how I imagine she’s feeling and she tells my S.O. that she thinks I’m really great. However, I don’t BELIEVE her. I don’t TRUST her. I want to, but I really don’t. This isn’t HER problem, it isn’t my S.O.’s problem…I know it’s ON ME. Any suggestions for “getting over it”? It’s one of those situations where I know what my problem is…I just don’t know how to fix it. Any experience/advice would be awesome!
Hi Janelle!
(I owe you an email!)
I can totally understand why you’d want your holiday visit to just be fully “yours” and not have to deal with the mom during this time, especially since your stepdaughter is traveling back and forth. What has your husband said about his ex coming during the two weeks? Can he tell her that you would prefer to just be able to spend this time together, uninterrupted?
As far as our experiences with holidays, we tried to trade off with both Thanksgiving and Christmas in the beginning. I think about three years into it, we tried our first combined Christmas morning and it wasn’t anywhere near as horrible as we thought it might be. Now, we take turns hosting Christmas at our house, with a big breakfeast feast, a la Peggy’s Thanksgiving breakfast.
As to your second question about learning how to work with boundaries without sacrificing yourself (I *think* this is what you’re saying, right?), I guess it’s often a matter of trial and error. There were many times I tried to do “the right thing” with Carol and I felt terrible, but at least I had the comfort of feeling like I’d done the right thing! (Such as biting my tongue when the kids talked about something fun they’d done with her and responding positively, as much as possible.) Do you have a specific situation you’re struggling with?
Nice to hear from you!
I’m off to Kickboxing…back in an hour or so…please see new comment from Kelly (with a Y)!!
Hi Kelly!
I’d feel nervous too around someone who was dismissive and cold 25% of the time! After all, you never know what’s coming, right? Do you think things are stable enough, overall, between you two to maybe ask her to have a conversation with you about working with each other a little more cooperatively? Or does that sound too far at the moment? It’s possible that with a little more communication, you’d be able to agree on some common parameters for behavior and interaction and some of the awkwardness would eventually go away. We’ve got some ideas in our book about how to have some of these first initial meetings and conversations.
Barring that scenario, you might want to look into some other resources for yourself to calm and soothe any anxious feelings. Call a trusted friend and vent (one who’ll listen, but not necessarily take you in the direction of fanning the flames), get outside and breath some fresh air, or learn some meditative techniques. If you REALLY wanted to get down and dirty, I’d highly recommend picking up a very easy to use workbook on cognitive therapy by Matthew McKay, called Thoughts & Feelings: Taking Control of Your Moods and Your Life.” Basically, you slow down your thoughts enough to “hear” what you’re saying to yourself and verify whether they’re really true or not. Often our thoughts are really inaccurate, but the emotions they generate are uncomfortably real enough!
Hope that helps. Best of luck!
Hi Ladies….I’m just able to join due to a morning commitment. There are lots of questions and I want to be sure to get to everyone. So, last night Kellie and I worked together to tell our story to Peggy. I have placed it below so that you know what we’ve been through and where we started to make peace in our relationship…maybe this will shed a litte light starting with what Kellie had to say…..
Kellie: When I first met Kathryn I had been a single parent for quite a few years. This isn’t to say Bailey’s dad Jeff wasn’t in the picture, because he most certainly was. Jeff had Bailey every other weekend.
The year after Jeff and Kathryn got married, I applied for a position with a past employer and the job was in Seattle (we all lived in the Portland, Oregon area). I made sure with Jeff and Kathryn that they didn’t mind me uprooting Bailey before we moved. They were amenable to that, and they still continued to see Bailey EOW. Things happened, as they often do and changes needed to be made.
My mom, unfortunately, was a very cynical and negative presence in my life. When I first mentioned to my mom that Kathryn and I had talked for almost an hour, that very first day we spoke, her immediate response was “Be careful! I wouldn’t trust her if I were you.” Honestly, that hurt to hear her say that, if only because this is something I’ve wanted; for Kathryn and I to get along. To have my mom take the exciting news I was telling her and to basically step on it…that hurt. I understand why my mom felt that way (to a point), but I am adult. I can handle myself. I basically had to move to Eastern Washington for me to understand how her attitude was affecting me and my relationship with Jeff and Kathryn.
I think, deep down, I always knew what a great person Kathryn is. I was just too stubborn and bullheaded to let go of my emotions and embrace her. I am so very proud of Kathryn and myself for getting to this point. We have literally put one another through hell, but I believe it was worth it in the long run. We both needed to mature, and have a period of time where we literally said NOTHING to one another.
My husband has had an amazing positive effect in my relationship with Kathryn (and Jeff), so I owe a lot to him. He’s just made me want to be a better person, for myself, my family and last but not least, Jeff and Kathryn.
I look forward to the future knowing we’ll all be able to enjoy every accomplishment our daughter does. I feel at peace knowing Kathryn and Jeff love Bailey as much as Bill and I do. I know Bailey is more at peace knowing all of her parents get along and we won’t ruin a special day. If I had the opportunity to choose a StepMom for Bailey, I would pick Kathryn, without a doubt. Yes, we’ve put one another through so much, but I now see what a superb StepMom Kathryn is and am comfortable knowing she is well cared for while she is down visiting Jeff and Kathryn.
Kathryn has sort of taken my StepSons under her wing too. She’ll send them special candy in the mail, so they don’t feel left out. To me, that shows her true character.
It’s too bad it took me so long to find out what an amazing woman she is, but now that I know it, I won’t forget it and will do everything I can to help our relationship grow. We’re going to be in one anothers lives for a looong time, and that makes me smile!
Kathryn: I met Kellie a few weeks after Jeff & I stared dating when we picked Bailey up for a weekend and I was surprised at how much alike we both seemed on the surface. Our relationship seemed to go guardedly well for two years until right before Jeff & my wedding in September 2001. I think a few things happened simultaneously that began to effect our relationship; Jeff lost his job and began falling behind on child support which directly effected Kellie and caused stress for her, Kellie’s mother got angry with me over the size of my engagement ring seeing as Jeff was unemployed (the diamonds were inherited, but she didn’t know that until then) and there were arguments between Jeff & Kellie in my presence about the language in the Parenting Plan regarding visitation.
Our relationship trended downward, and while Kellie tried to embrace me as a new presence in Bailey’s life, her family was far less welcoming. When invited to watch Bailey open her Christmas gifts that same year when I stopped by to bring Bailey home, I felt Kellie wanted me there and he family, didn’t. It was uncomfortable and began to feel increasingly hostile. In fact, it was, and the bulk of the hostility came from Kellie’s mother who was a huge part of Kellie & Bailey’s life. Then our relationship went from tenuous to really, really bad.
We fought about everything and there was nothing either of us or Jeff or our families could do right. Bailey was in the middle; everyone wanting what was best for her….not realizing that what would be best would be for all of the people involved to make an actual and real effort to get along. We argued over visitation, clothes Bailey was dressed in, who had what clothes at which home and what belonged to who, her hygiene, access to school records, pets Bailey spent time with, child care, doctor and dentist appointments, sleep overs and vacations, who Bailey spent time with while in the other persons care, extra curricular activities, church, movie Bailey saw, child support, bills & reimbursements, distance and mode of of travel between the homes, new residences, holidays and birthdays, money spent outside of child support, medications, condition of each others homes, phone time, privacy in communications with Bailey, who picked Bailey up for visitations, scheduling activities on the others parents time, Bailey’s grades, Bailey’s behaviors in the other parents home…..everything.
If one of us called the other, sent a letter, sent an email, tried to talk in person, we didn’t like each other so greatly that it was always interpreted as hostile, which is exactly what happens when you get to this point. We would call and leave messages for each other when we knew the other person wasn’t home, we taped each others phone calls, we went to court, we sued each other. Arguments began to get to loud, so vicious and so inflammatory between all of the parents and our families, they seemed almost to come to blows. We all had the police and sheriffs departments phone numbers memorized. Court ordered mediation failed resoundingly.
We stopped talking at all and only sent letters and emails through our attorneys. The binders of documents and communications we both had were feet thick. We would have Bailey get out of the car dropping her off and walk to the car picking her up, with an order from the attorneys not to speak and not to get out an engage the other parent. We spent thousands of dollars not to speak and not to let the other parents “push us around”. Then there was silence. For three years, we maybe spoke a total of twenty words to each other. We lost a total of eight years to this.
We tried to think we were doing the best for Bailey, fighting for Bailey and we all knew we did it because we loved all her so much. None of us were blind to the other parents love and devotion to her. And while it was always about Bailey, our own issues with each other and every topic possible began to intrude and make communications impossibly hostile and finally just mean. Then we tried to think not communicating at all would be best, and yes, while there was not yelling anymore, that had to be difficult for Bailey as well. Jeff & I basically acted like Kellie didn’t exist, didn’t ask her anything about her home life, didn’t want to do anything to make the fighting begin again.
Bailey demonstrated some behaviors, things all kids go through, but couldn’t have been helped by the issues between all of us….some poor grades in school, a period of lying to each of the parents about things the other had said and done, nightmares, shutting down a little when tough subjects arose. Nothing productive was coming of the fighting OR ignoring, but the parents and families couldn’t stand each other. None of us knew how to end this terrible situation.
After Kellie & Bill were married we had to cut our visits with Bailey down to fewer times per year for longer periods. We drafted a modified Parenting Plan and with a few small changes Kellie signed it agreeing to pay half of the cost of the modification charges, attorney fees, and flight costs. That was the first time there wasn’t an argument about anything. Bailey then had two younger step brothers in the home and Jeff & I couldn’t stand the thought of sending little presents and cards to Bailey for holidays like Easter, Halloween, a great report card or just a special treat and have her brothers see her get a treat and have nothing for them. So, we sent them treats too. And then…..Kellie called to thank us. And that opened the door to communicating.
We were careful at first and trying hard not to cross any lines with the other person. Then one day Kellie called about a child support modification, and what she didn’t know that that Jeff’s salary had been cut by 18% and his company closed for unscheduled days off to save money and placed their employees on partial unemployment. She had no idea this had happened because Jeff had just continued paying a child support amount that was above what the state mandated, but that we felt we could afford. We had never civilly spoke about anything concerning money in the past and I was so happy she had opened the door. Kellie was the one to ask us if we could do an increase instead of just going to the state and requesting one. Jeff & I wouldn’t even consider the reduction the state offered us due to the unemployment, but I told Kellie the news regarding Jeff’s salary and she was totally accepting with leaving child support the way it was and so supportive of what Jeff & I were going through. And, we started to talk. We started apologizing to each other, started breaking down why we had had such a hard time, discussed the influence of our loved ones on Kellie & my relationship, started talking about what an amazing woman Bailey was becoming, how much we had missed, and realizing, finally realizing, how alike we really were and how much Bailey loved us all….and how lucky we were not to have real problems with our daughter as a result of our conflicts.
Kellie and I talk at least once a week, often not even about Bailey. We work together on parenting things, through problems both home and work, loss of loved ones, good days and hard days alike, and have forged a relationship, a friendship, out of our really painful past. We matured, and we did so together. We will always be a part of each others life because we are in Bailey’s life, and we now have a bond we can be proud of. Neither of us thought we would EVER have anything in common, much less get along; and no way we could ever be friends or trust one another. Happily, so happily, we were wrong. We have been through such pain and anguish over each other and we know exactly how hard it can be to be a step mom……but now we can do it together.
Thanks Jennifer! I’ve talked to her a few times one on one but what she says she wants (as far as a relationship between us) and what she does are very different sometimes. I’m basically at a point with her where I know I can’t change her, but I know I can change how I react to her. I want her to be as comfortable as possible around me, but I know she’s going through a lot and that might not be achievable right now. I will definitely look at getting that workbook. It won’t be easy but I’m sure I have the power to control (maybe not how i FEEL, but maybe) how I react to how I feel. Thanks again for the advice!!!
You’re welcome, Kelly! Sounds like you’re doing a good job being empathetic and pretty even-minded about the whole situation. I bet you’ll get somewhere better….
OK….I think I’ve caught all of the questions from this morning & early afternoon…please let me know if I missed any…..
Megan. At first Jeff was a bit distrustful as Kellie & I had had some very short lived periods of calm in the past. I don’t think he thought much of our breakthrough until I shared with him a cliff note version of what Kellie & I had said to each other during our first long conversation. When I would tell him something, he’d say, “Really!?”. He was shocked we’d been able to sift through so many raw emotions and horrible memories and not slam the phone down on each other. It took him a few weeks, and he started to relax when I said Kellie’s name and the open communication we’ve maintained since has bolstered his positive feelings again. He is really pleased now that all four of Bailey’s parents can coexist and it feels really good from his and my perspective.
Megan, Bunny & Kat spoke about the other parent not wanting a relationship, described her treatment to them as ‘mean’ and feeling hurt and disappointed which leads right into Dawn’s actions and communications getting no response. I absolutely agree with all of the following comments from the other smart gals on this board. In my experience, your boundries, well communicated to your partner and the other parent are all YOU can do. There just isn’t anything you can do for anyone who doesn’t want a relationship with you. You can be generous, and gracious and look the other way and it might not get you anywhere. BUT, what I do advise is acting in a way in return that you won’t be ashamed of later. You can still be courteous, generous and gracious…..but do it for yourself and your relationship with your little ones. They will learn from you.
And, while it is a HUGE diappointment and it really, really hurts not to be treated well or not to be given any effort back, my thought is to try…and I mean really try, not to put too many of your precious emotions into it. I had to detatch a lot from Kellie and anything to do with her, really, just not give anything not diretly concerning Bailey a second thought, and what ended up happening was that it allowed me to then look and listen to her with fresh eyes and ears. And that took us years, but it ended up happening. And as we said in our story, we NEVER thought it could happen. If your not sure, just think about the best and worst outcomes of detatching a little….maybe that will help give it some clarity (and it is hard at first).
Janelle. Holidays and distance. We also have some distance as Bailey has a one hour flight between our homes. Given that, we did fewer, longer trips.
A weekend in January for he birthday
1/2 of Spring Break week starting Thursday and ending Sunday evening (so both households could do something with her for the break)
A 3 week solid block in summer (of our choosing by May 1st each year so both homes can plan summer activities)
Then, either Thanksgiving weekend beginning Wednesday evening and ending on Sunday evening OR a 3 day weekend in October based on who has visitation on Thanksgiving every other year. Of course, Christmas & Thanksgiving rotate each year.
Finally….we split Christmas break in half…..the evening school gets out until the 26th at noon OR the 26th at noon until the evening before she goes back to class.
This has worked far better for all of us I think, but especially Bailey, who gets to spend entire holidays with one parent and alternate the next year. And not commuting her back and forth on special days (which is why we don’t worry about Easter, Memorial Day etc., too much time lost for Bailey’s enjoyment of those days communting).
And finally, Wednesday. Kellie and I both think the distance and not needing to see each other helped tremendously. I really understand Jennifer’s thoughts on this too…and I know our situtation isn’t helpful for a lot of women who do need to have these frequent interactions. And I think this goes back to your healthy boundries. To that end, Jennifer, does your book have some healthy boundry setting techniques?
Please excuse any typos…..I was trying to catch up really fast
Kathryn!! So glad you were able to join us! Hooray!
Kathryn – I am so glad you posted yours and Kellie’s story. I know I had it, but coming from you and her is so much better than me
Thank you so much for sharing it because you showed all the crap and how your relationship grew from a simple act of kindness.
Bravo and well done!